Ah in this case the concern was that when you in when when you entered into an
agreement, yeah some of these agreements could run into a lot of pages yeah 20 pages, 30
pages, 40 pages and the way these transactions would get registered in thus yes our office
initially was that they were copied . So, you had a document done when you took it
for registration, they would take the document they would copy it into the register yeah.
So, it would take a lot of time because you did not have a lot of copy writers.
And then after sometime what happened was you started microfilming it, but microfilming
equipment was not very easy to install in a sub registrar office .
So, in one district those are archive department and all this document were taken to that
facility for microfilming and so, there was a lag sometimes up to 2 to 3 months in you
getting back your original documents. So, you you had entered into a transaction, you
have got it registered, but getting back the original document would take anywhere between
2 to 3 months. And because they were so much of 2 and 4involved, sometimes you would
lose that document yeah. So, that was a big concern in the system yeah
. So, roughly again around the late 90s when the scanning technology became say are
are started proliferating, it was fell that we will it easy to get the documents scan
and that would be fast enough and we can then return it back to the citizens. So, at least
we will take care of that aspect of inconvenience, that citizens are going through yeah and that
is what this project is doing here. So, this is from a sub registrars office not not all
the sub registrar offices look like this, I am sure how the sub registrar offices in
urban areas that you are gone to look slightly better at least in terms of this space that
is available, but this is in in taluk in Tumkur called Pavagada which is largely
rural kind of taluk, but this is what happens there.
So, you have a workstation, and you have an operator, you take your document there
yeah. Document gets there is a basic entry form and that gets an entered there, they
are based on the value of the transaction is a registration fees and stamp duty that
is levied you are expected to pay those charges, and once you have done that and once
sub registrars has a has approved, the document get scanned and you get your document back
yeah. So, this is what this project is doing. Now if you will if you look at this project
from the broader property transaction a process, yeah because this is a part the property registration
is not a standalone activity, it is valuable in the when you are looking at or when you
are considering the overall property transaction process yeah. I as a buyer want to sell my
property you as a seller want to buy that property yeah .
Ah sorry I as a seller want to sell that property, you as a buyer want to buy that
property and we want to ensure that the its a fair transaction between us, that is something
that has that has as greater value to us as buyers and sellers, as the time that it takes
for me to get the document back. In fact, in certain cases in the longer term I am I
might be willing to wait for 5 days to get the document back. If it comes with a greater
guarantee, that the transaction is legally secure. I the property that I claim is owned
my me is actually owned my me, and if the state because it has access to a lot of data
about that property about the history of that property, about me as a buyer about you as
a seller can if provide can invoke all that access to data, and then tell me know this
transaction seems to be legally valid. If it we are to do that 2 days, 5 days, 10 days
20 days, 5 hours is not at all our concern yeah.
But in the again in the choice of technology what was considered relevant or what was
considered important was not that aspect in the property transaction process, but this
convenience or efficiency in terms of returning the document. Not that that is not a that
that is not a valid concern on that may not be a valid way of looking at it. What in the
process you have left out certain things, which could also be a valued to a lot of buyers
and sellers. Sometimes even more who will it be a greater value to someone who is able
to navigate through the complex relationships and structures of the state yeah I know English,
I have studied till a particular standard, I know people who the officers who sit in
those officers yeah, I will have greater access to what the states data yeah. I am a farmer
I am I do not know English, I profit do not have a lot of money, I do not have the kind
of contacts that sub one of my urban count counterparts has in the sub registrar office,
I will not have access to that kind of data yeah.
So, I as a rural farmer expect that service, I may be willing to wait for 10 days for my
document to come back yeah. But I if it comes back with her greater say guarantee from the
state that what you are engaging in his looks to be legally valid, that is a greater value
for me yeah. Someone else who who is working in say one of the company is down the road
and has to take a day off and it is not willing to that yeah what value the . So, I go there
only once get it done and I do not have to take a day off yeah. So, that person because
anyway that person has greater access to the state and its database is existing database
is, whether there digital or otherwise yeah would not value that as much because they
would have mechanisms to ensure that the legal validity can be figured out a reasonable extra
yeah. So, certain groups and their and what the
values value could get reflected in technology designs, and that is what here also what you
are trying to say is just as in the case of PDS and in the case of Bhoomi the certain
groups whose voice is fit get heard more or get considered more while you design technologies
yeah. Nothing to say that is the only way technology should be design yeah you can always
design a technology where by you can think of linking these different databases, you
can think of linking the land conversion plan that is very important I want to know whether
the builder the land at the builder is selling to me has does this have a residential permission
or not yeah. So, that the builder has access to I as a
buyer may not yeah for the state definitely knows this the state one of the the the BDA
all the urban development authority or someone has sanctioned it definitely has access to
that data yeah. So, that could be of value and digital technologies can be designed to
to factor in that value in terms of the design, and then while they may be do not
consider something as important yeah . So, end of it what I am trying to invoke is that
technology designs are political technology designs and various other designs yeah they
are political and their political. In this sense we include something we exclude
something what we include depends on what we consider as valuable, what we exclude depends
on what we do not consider as valuable yeah. So, we do not consider this as valuable we
do not consider this as valuable we consider this as valuable.
So, therefore, we include that in our design of technology yeah. So, one of the takeaway
is that yeah. So, will will will probably skip this because we are now we are more or
less there . So, the takeaways is that technology designs are political how do you react to
this as technol any technology you are there are few technologies we we have or. So, somehow
in our education system or in a social system we are led to believe that anything to do
with politics is is bad are we not yeah. Oh do not in do not in intelligent politicises
what we are told what do we do? yeah With all things off of everything that can be a
political technology differently is considered the most neutral or a IT is a very neutral
kind of tool yeah IT technology is a neutral tool nothing to do with politics there is
only way in which it can happen its up to the people to decide what to do with it yeah.
But when we are doing all that, you are all doing politics where including we are excluding
that is what we are all doing and there is no harm in acknowledging that. So, as technology
designers, we have to understand that politics is as integral to designing as could be anything
else yeah and there is so, many other examples in agricultural easy trade DBT MCT as UID
digital financial all of that yeah we we can get into all this .
Quickly on the development priorities of the Indian state, this is something that we
have all signed . So, as a country we have agreed we have we are signatory to the SDG.
So, I will go with this I will I I will go with as a country we want no poverty we want
zero hunger, we want clean water and sanitation, responsible consumption and production all
of that is what? All of us have signed has a country and as a global community. So, not
only as a national community as a global community, all of us almost 100 6 75 are countries
have signed on something like this yeah. Now this 5 year plans exist no more
but very recently the last 5 year plan this is what it talked about. It said faster sustainable
and more inclusive growth yeah. So, our development mantra and we we not very it like even when
the government has changed I do not think the new government is saying that no we are
not trying to do this yeah. We are saying [FL] your saying we want to grow yeah that
is what we tried to do yeah. So, faster sustainable and more inclusive growth is again something
that is driving or development priority, and then it should result in low incidence
lower incidence of poverty broad based significant improvements in health outcomes
all of that yeah . When the prime minister talks of good governance
as transparent and accountable bring government closer to our citizens so that they become
active participants in the governance process. Transparency, accountability, participation
yeah these are still values in our inclusive faster and sustainable growth dialogues. Anything
that you want to your concerned with at this point apart from the fact that we are running
behind schedule ok. So, a slight detour, some of you would probably know this.
So, I Will I will run through this quickly this is how the worlds wealth shared amongst
its its population this is a world economic economic forum 2016 data this actually
less than 10,000 dollars yeah. So, 71 percent of the population and the wealth is defined
as all the financial marketable value of financial assets plus non-financial assets, principally
housing and land owned by an adult less all the dates that he or she would have yeah .
So, 71 percent of the world's population owns 3 percent of the world's wealth. 0.7 percent
of the world's population owns 45 percent of the world's wealth in 2016. This is the
global IT industry again I think 2017 now 2016 data this is the estimated revenue
at constant prices encompasses hardware, software services, telecom.
So, broadly the IT industry, its a reflective of the consumption of IT yeah. So, we are
taking this as most of the IT is being consumed here, almost one third of the worlds IT is
being consumed in North America, one fourth is being consumed in Western Europe yeah the
rest of the world this one is a high figure. Because you also Japan and Australia some
of these countries China two seconds can here, but its fair to say that most of the IT consumption
is happening in North America and Europe Western Europe one of the greatest consumers.
Of IT this is what it looks like yeah. If the land mass were and this is from the occupy
wall street movement yeah, if it were divided like its wealth. This is what 40 percent would
own this dot yeah and this is what? 1 percent would own .
Western Europe UK one of the poster choice there, who gained most from increasing wealth
during this 15 year period, 20 26 percent went to the richest 1 percent yeah.
So, the increase in wealth in UK during this 2000 to 2050 period of that increase one forth
went to the richest 1 percent yeah. 7 percent went to the poorest 50 percent yeah. So, the
disparities significantly increase yeah . So, you looked at global distribution of wealth,
we looked at heavy consumers of information technology digital technologies, we look that
wealth ownership growth benefits in those geographies, this is where we are yeah.
We are doing we have done a bit better, but in terms of hunger is still about 100
in a world ranking of 118 . This is how a are IT industry has grown over
the last 20 25 years yeah very impressive numbers yeah
So, our IT industries grown pretty well , but we have concerns like hunger, we have concerns
like you to malnutrition and various other concerns I am sure all of you are aware of
some of our development concerns that exist here, but we are sitting in an area which
is known for its IT capabilities yeah where at least producing IT yeah. So, this is production
of IT and to a certain extent a very weak type of correlation to say certain and development
indicators the the the the earlier two three slides were consumption of IT and what has
consumption of IT again and I am not these are very weak correlations that you are
trying to do, because I have not done them and what does it do to wealth concentration
yeah. So, initial feelers, but that the there are
more empirical works which suggest that the current way in which IT is being produced
and consumed is not leading to the kind of development priorities, we have set for ourselves
as a global community or as a nation . Yeah the current global production system
including of digital technology products is highly skewed towards the wealthy both individuals
and nations yeah. So, that what is that the tool, but will will come back to that once
we bring everything together. Some perspectives on technology design will
not get into technology because this has been discussed, but we were referring I think
by now you are more or less in agreement with what you are trying to see .
Now, within when the we look at technology, there is one strand of the entire technology
studies with says that technology is deterministic yeah. When we say it is deterministic we say
that its evolution is deterministic it is going to. So, artificial intelligence is going
to take over the world, that is a deterministic claim yeah. When we say that jobs are going
to go away, these are deterministic claims yeah. um Unless we qualified for the artificial
intelligence of this form applied in this context is going to say make these kinds of
jobs redundant unless we get into the block block black box of that statement deconstructed.
So, that we have opportunities to analyze what could be the various choices that can
be exercised, we are making highly deterministic claims about technology evolution, technology
designs and this is this is gains significance in the case of digital technologies, largely
because of something that has more or less stood the test of time over the last 50 years
and what is that ? Moores law.
Moores law. So, Moores law has some Moore Gordon Moore was one of the initial chip
inventors and he had suggested something on what will happen to computing power in
the world at that has more or less stood the test of time. And the because of that
there is an increasing say or something like that has been appropriated by a lot of
other technology designers, vendors to suggest that there is an inherent logic to how technology
is advanced and and there the other people have to consume it, they have to they just
have its not a question of whether its a question of when yeah. So, so that is the kind of
arguments that come out of this brand of looking at technology.
But then apart from that I am because it has not found to hold for a lot of other
contacts, there is this way of looking at technology which is which is called
social shaping of technology, and the desire is that will democratise technology, will
free it of some of these claims that are being made often by those who have are those
who are at a higher position of power in the entire technology value chain yeah. And because
they do not want to subject themselves to scrutiny dev take deterministic claims yeah.
So, when IBM or Google or Microsoft makes those claims, yeah they are at a higher level
in the value chain. They do not there algorithms to be subject to scrutiny by a village accountant
in Tumkur yeah or buy a property buyer in Bangalore and therefore, they want to make
claims like that and does not need to democratise technology yeah and when we say democratic
technology, we say at least you should be able to understand what is going going inside.
So, the algorithms we should be able to understand what has gone into building that algorithm,
what is gone what kind of data has gone into training a particular a I application etcetera
yeah and that is where its coming from. So, it says how does social institutional,
economic and cultural factors shape the direction as well as the rate of innovation the form
of technology and the outcomes of technological change yeah.
So, this is saying that oh its not a black box yeah. There are choices that are exercised
by people while developing design technologies, and those choices should be made known to
more and more people who are to be affected by consuming that technology yeah . So, where
does all of this bring us to ? The last one technologies we are increasingly
realising as students of technology, that technologies can be socially shift yeah. And
even in case of our PDS example in case of or other examples, we did see that depending
on what is a value in that social context a particular choice can be made about technologies
yeah. So, it can be socially shift ok this we have not come to
just forget the middle portion this one . The existing approach to designing digital
technologies for used by the Indian state demonstrates elements of a lead capture. yeah
Some of you who are looking at development studies etcetera, I am sure you would have
come across this term. The existing attempt is trying to demonstrate that, when it says
that all the village accountant are more corrupt, when it says that the fair price shop owners
are the most inefficient yeah. So, when it makes those kinds of claims, yeah
there is a reflection of the elite in Delhi in Bangalore yeah the more educated not only
within the government, but also some of these supporters of the current state in the corporate
in the academy all of that yeah they are coming together and trying to influence, what kind
of technology design should happen in this case yeah .
So, what should do we do? I am sorry I could not change this part technologies can be shaped
and the current atoms a leading to a lead capture. So, what should we do? And we also
saw that in that ditto that the existing production logic of digital technologies is create is
making the rich richer individuals as well as nations and so, all the countries which
are not as rich like us, we still have while we are producing a not consuming as much and
maybe some of the reasons for our on the malnutrition, education concerns are not taken
care of yeah. So, what should we do? What should we do in terms of a technology designs?
So, will go to economics . So, we should go to other we should look for look up to other
disciplines . So, Amit Bhaduri is a development economist
and this is what he has to say. An objective which combines participatory democracy for
the people especially the poor people of our country with a high rate of pro poor growth,
that is what the prime minister was saying participation of the people this is what are
twelfth plan was saying high inclusive growth yeah. So, when we have to combine participatory
democracy for the people, when we have to get more and more people participate into
our governance and technology design decisions, while we also want a high rate of pro poor
growth to be sustained over time yeah we are and and that is what we want to do yeah through
our technology designs yeah as a nation, as a community. Anyone who does not want to do
this? We do yeah more or less. Now given that what is it that we should be doing? The essence
lies in our ability to define an economic role for the poorest and the most disadvantaged
both as a producer and a consumer yeah. So, we want them not only to consume. So,
we should not be looking at them only from CK Prahalad bottom of the pyramid consumer
say perspective, but we also need to bring them or make them producers and participate
in the growth process yeah. The poor would not be passive receivers of those, but active
contributors to the process of development yeah. So, that is something that Amit Bhaduri
says. And I feel that this is this could be one of the ways we can adopt when we are designing
technologies yeah . So, if digital technologies were to play a
role in achieving the Indian states agenda of development and good governance, and SDG
is in general in India and across the world some tall claims is what I am making here.
But I think its ok at the at least it triggered some discussion, I hope I will be countered
by some of you here. The design approach and production logic will have to change yeah.
Production logic today is highly skewed it has to change and it has to change to include
more and more people in the production value chain. Designs will have to be more appreciative
of local context peoples their needs and their rights and entitlements yeah and maybe shift
towards something what the situation was talking about cocreation, participatory design teams,
going back to notions of appropriate technology yeah that could possibly be a way to go yeah
do we have any presidents? Yes we do . .
We had something like this about 100 years back yes I I expect some forunce and some
some strong arguments against using this. .
Yes. some of asking even know .
But, but this was a very powerful technology that was employed about 100 years back and
that hurt and and that went beyond and that that I feel incorporated some of the elements
that we talked about later, yeah and that brought a bottle lot of change in terms
of what we wanted to bring about at that point in time yeah. Because we are not at least
this is what Gandhiji said it the spirit is service its not exploitation. yeah And
we we want production, he want more and more people to get involved in the production value
chain yeah. So, that the the skewed values that currently attribute or that currently
accrue to people and nations yeah gets distributed more evenly. Because that is what as a community,
as a global community, as a nation, as a nation most of us as individuals strive for; we want
equity yeah we we definitely Janaki was talking about equity we we want a fair and just society
yeah may not be equal we will we may not not a first may want everyone to has the same
access to resources but at least social norms and processes to be fair and equitable
here that there has to be something like that yeah. So, . So, this is what I had thank you
very much any questions? You can be a run out of time, but any questions yes .
sir production of design and cost rate .
(Refer Time:32:28) . So, actually, but take in front there are infrastructure required
or literacy really mean, but taking the same kind of a proportion such infrastructure and
. . So, the competition was with a similar kind
of what is on at that point in time yeah at that point in time in Manchester you had
big meals, yeah you you had steam you had everything else there. Now at that point in
time a a similar question would have I am sure come to a lot of people, can we actually
compete is that the only or an a deterministic approach would say oh that is the way to go.
There power looms, their big factories, this
is a production system in that the way to go , but then when you had socio political
economic cultural answer, which was which was put together it was it was not a pure
say technology solution, yeah it was a it was all encompassing contextual approach
that was suggested, you were able to find something like a charkha. You may be able
to find something like a charkha equivalent today. In fact, is a very interesting book
again it draws a lot from some of the Gandhi some of Gandhi's and other Buddhist thoughts
which is book by Schumacher its called small is beautiful yeah .
So, I will I will suggest you go through go through what Schumacher's says yeah. So, that
again suggest that when your looking at technology design, yeah you should consider some of
these factors. yeah Sometimes what happens is we as nations we start to believe that
will do well if you behave as a good cooperation yeah and there there a lot of differences
between what a corporation is about what a profit making enterprises about and what the
nation is about for an an . So, one of the basic differences they show a wages yeah for
a corporation profit making enterprise wages is cost, that is not true for the nation.
We want more and more people to be employed to be paid better yeah for national economy
to do well, we do not we we do not look at wages as a nation as cost.
But as a profit making enterprise, we will look at wages as cost which has to be minimized.
As a nation we we would want wages to be maximized yeah. So, sometimes when we break ourselves
free from some of these notions of deterministic ways in which societies technologies have
to move, we may not be able to look beyond certain aspects, but they they come give or
not like if if it that is to be the concern for us, let us look at certain technology
designs which are decentralized now, which factor in the capacity is that exist in
local communities and take it forward from there.
This this nothing to suggest that knowledge search can only happen through a central database
which Google has access to yeah. There can be various ways in which you can search knowledge,
you can create knowledge, yeah again there is nothing to suggest empirically, that given
all this access to information the knowledge creation process in the world has accelerated.
And when I say knowledge I do not say patents and say those. (Refer Time:36:08) I say
knowledge in the sense that it leads to making certain changes in the way, people live that
probably has not yeah. So, we need to question .
Sir sir one question question on of the state . So, right now with all the advances
that are happening in and machine learning etcetera. So, you have scenario that a lot
of banking in the categories of to be eliminated the question has just is there
whole for the state let the market who want to do and let those people want to do
because the Google, Facebook amazon who have an outside impact who have more power
information some cases . So, the state has role to play yes the
state has a role to play and when when people say that these this is what is going to happen,
we need to and that is what I was referring to earlier. when these claims are being made
we have to sit back and try to understand who is making these claims. yeah is Google
making this claim, how much should be considered Google as a valid upholder of human dignity
and development the way we would want it to be? if we do then we should listen to them
if you do not and if you feel that the Village Panchayat is a better decider what is development,
yeah then we should the state should come in to say that no will not listen to you Google,
whatever who who whatever worth you have in international market, but will listen to
this village Village Panchayat and the village comes that is where the state comes in .
technology randification is that . Yes that is and that is. So, so and many a
times these claims are deterministic claims and they are made to ensure that you are you
are you are holier than the cow, you are not subject to scrutiny yeah. So, every step back
and say ok. So, what is this what we want to do do you want to people to have jobs?
If you want that as a valid development priority, will just not there there will be a
regulation which will say anything any technology which takes away a job in this way you are
not going to support. And as a regulator you say I will have 200 percent tax on that. You
do not give export promotion benefits if you feel that your software exports is leading
to longer term deterioration in the skills, in the innovative skills of your industry
yeah . So, there is a lot of ways in which the state
comes in, because what the state can look at private profit making corporations cannot
and and one of the examples I do not know you were here or not was that, something as
simple as wages is cost for a corporation is investment for the nation yeah ok.
Thank you very much .